The Janus Oasis - John Espirian - The Power of Community
[00:00:00] Nola Simon: All right. I am very grateful to have the relentlessly helpful LinkedIn nerd available on the Janice Oasis. So for those of you who don't recognize that introduction, that is. John Experian who runs a special plus and has been ridiculously helpful to, uh, to many people around the world. I often start my day chatting with Sean and the people in his group.
[00:00:30] Nola Simon: And, uh, you know, I started in the UK and, you know, by half an hour later, I could be in Australia or where else do we have? We have people all around the globe, right? We've you actually have a map.
[00:00:42] John Espirian: We have a map. We have people all over the place. And thank you for helping to represent Canada NOLA.
[00:00:48] Nola Simon: Yes, I, I w I'm gradually, uh, crafting what I, when I first joined, there was only one other person.
[00:00:54] Nola Simon: Um, and then, uh, somebody I knew joined and joined just actually informed me that somebody else in Toronto [00:01:00] has just joined. So we have four Canadians. So I highly recommend if you are actually looking to build out your LinkedIn knowledge and really actually just like having a supportive place online, um, John's group is incredibly worth it, so he's just reopened the doors, but those doors are going to be closing very quickly when he actually reaches 300 and you're going to actually keep it there.
[00:01:26] Nola Simon: Right. John. Yeah,
[00:01:27] John Espirian: that's the plan. I just want to do everything myself and kind of make it all personal. And that means I just can't support her a massive community on my own. So I thought 300 was a good cutoff point. And we're about two thirds of the way there at the moment. Yeah. So, yes, it will be a small community moving forward, but we all get to know each other.
[00:01:47] John Espirian: We get to work together and hopefully we, we get to support each other's businesses. That's the plan.
[00:01:53] Nola Simon: Yeah, no, exactly. That's right. And it was funny. I, uh, I joined, uh, uh, LinkedIn audio. I got a notification yesterday on all LinkedIn [00:02:00] audio for, uh, is, uh, somebody who's actually two people are a part of your group and I went on stage and I'm like, I just had to say hi.
[00:02:07] Nola Simon: And they're like, yes, espresso classes in that.
[00:02:11] John Espirian: That's lovely. It's lovely to see the connections that people make world. When you, when you've got some kind of, you know, some commonality you can, it makes it a global village. Doesn't it. Everything becomes a bit smaller. Um, that's really cool.
[00:02:26] Nola Simon: It is. It is super cool.
[00:02:28] Nola Simon: And that's actually why I wanted to have you on the podcast because I've always been involved. Uh, I'm involved in, in creating community. Um, I actually started. When I, uh, started working on LinkedIn, but I took the LinkedIn skills that I was building at the time. And I started applying it internally and I started growing like employee voice groups internally on Yammer.
[00:02:50] Nola Simon: And, um, eventually I founded, uh, uh, uh, employee resource group in ERG and it's really the same sort of skill. Uh, that group was actually [00:03:00] to support parents when the pandemic. And then it was actually then formalized into, uh, an employee resource group. Um, but I'm also looking at building community around the Janice Oasis and that's where I thought John could really be helpful in terms of how do you encourage people to participate?
[00:03:17] Nola Simon: And one of the things that I really like about your group and the way that you operate is you have this approach where people who are essentially technically competitors. Come out and they support you and they cheer you and share tips and you collaborate. And it's just, it's the most wonderful experience to see people working together and supporting each other.
[00:03:41] Nola Simon: Um, so, so what's your magic that you.
[00:03:45] John Espirian: I think the starting point is not to be afraid of traditional competition. And to see if you have this kind of abundance, abundance mentality, where, where there is enough work to go around, if you're good enough at what you're doing, that you [00:04:00] don't need to be fearful of.
[00:04:02] John Espirian: Traditional competitors, because I think being fearful of competitors really means that you try to keep your information to yourself, which is a really bad idea in the internet age, because information isn't a secret anymore. Um, and you just give off good signals when, if you're willing to speak to anyone and everyone.
[00:04:23] John Espirian: Uh, w without kind of being guarded about potential competitors, I think that just signals confidence and authority and real leadership, uh, in your field. Um, and, and that's just the, that's just always the way I've been. I've never really worried about competitors. And I guess people see that over time and, uh, they, they trust you more because of it.
[00:04:44] John Espirian: So, yeah. That's a big part of it. Um, and then the other part of that is giving people a voice, you know, everyone wants to be heard and I think too much is, is built around just building an [00:05:00] audience. Well, that's great, but it's a one way street. But a community means that people can talk back to you and they feel heard and they feel empowered.
[00:05:09] John Espirian: And that's the, that's the bit that was missing from the puzzle for me. And that's what I spent the last few months really focusing on is giving people a voice and making them feel like they matter. Uh, and that that's where all the good stuff has been unlocked, I think.
[00:05:26] Nola Simon: And do you find that it's different having it like in a private group?
[00:05:33] John Espirian: Yes. A lot of people have told me that they post things within the group that they would not post publicly, or they try things that they would not do publicly because they realize that they're in a safe space. Of other people who are just trying to do the same sort of thing as them, they're unlikely to meet any kind of trolls or any kind of negativity.
[00:05:56] John Espirian: Everyone is trying to cheerlead for each other. And that just, that [00:06:00] just reduces the friction. It just makes everything a bit easier. Um,
[00:06:05] Nola Simon: Yes. I was encouraged to create my first gift within your group.
[00:06:09] John Espirian: Oh yeah, there there's an example. In point we've had other members of the group who've been on video for the first time and they've never turned on their camera before.
[00:06:18] John Espirian: It's just all of these little micro steps. If you feel like you, you're in a psychologically safe space, you can push yourself more than you thought you might be able to. And it's totally understandable because in the big wide world, Let's say LinkedIn with 800 plus million members where you've got no kind of safety net.
[00:06:38] John Espirian: What if you crash and burn? What if you get trolls? It's understandable that people would, would want to hold back, but in a small tightly knit group, uh, they can express themselves more on that. That's exactly. What's been hard.
[00:06:50] Nola Simon: Yeah, exactly. That's right. It's, it's, it's a different environment within the group and it's just fun and supportive and it's not that people don't disagree.
[00:06:58] Nola Simon: It's, it's, [00:07:00] it's, it's a safe space, like you say, so you can actually like, and express an opinion and get feedback and advice really on, on whether your take is accurate or.
[00:07:09] John Espirian: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Again, it's all about being heard isn't it? So that people can feel free to speak their mind and, and, you know, get tips, exchange ideas and not have, you know, layers of judgment put on them by, by people they don't really know or care about.
[00:07:26] John Espirian: We get to know each other in inside the group because you're interacting with a lot of the same people all the time. So it's, it's all been positive. So.
[00:07:34] Nola Simon: Yeah. And I get a lot of connection when I joined that audio group yesterday. Um, I had actually sent her a note previously and, uh, she connected because I had joined the audio of Anta and because I was part of your group because, um, one thing you should know about John, he also has a strict, no douche canoe, uh, rule.
[00:07:51] Nola Simon: Um, so what is your definition of douche canoe?
[00:07:57] John Espirian: For my book, I came up with this [00:08:00] idea of that, the ideal customer that you want to try to attract, but then also you want to try to repel people. Yeah, counterintuitive though, that might seem, and I thought, well, let's just imagine who that person would be. You know, what are the red flags that would be waving if this nightmare customer were to come my way?
[00:08:20] John Espirian: And I just imagined this, you know, slicked back hair, oversized gold watch always late. Always thought he knew best. Loads of last minute changes. So just a really unpleasant person to deal with. And I just characterize this guy as the salesy douche canoe. And I put that in a chapter of my book and I started using that terminology and lots of people have echoed it.
[00:08:44] John Espirian: To me. So I've just stuck with using it. So that person and people like that, uh, are the ones I want to avoid. Cause you know, avoiding headaches is, is just as important if not more so than, than attracting your ideal clients, because you just don't want those nightmares in [00:09:00] your life. Yup. Yup.
[00:09:01] Nola Simon: And I actually had to carry a vice-chair today too, and it wasn't necessarily due to money, but it was about what you don't do.
[00:09:07] Nola Simon: You would give an advice, right? What, right. What Dan, what services you don't get? So I actually published that on my, my business page the other day. Um, but you met a douche. Can you on a, was it Twitter? You John is stepping back from doing copywriting. You've been doing copywriting for what? 12 years.
[00:09:25] John Espirian: Yeah, that's right.
[00:09:26] John Espirian: Yeah. So that, that was actually the thing that you're referring to happen to happen a little while ago, but, um, yeah, so I had, uh, a recommended list of copywriters and there was someone who, who felt entitled enough that he should be on there when I didn't really know him that well. And, um, yeah, so that didn't end particularly well, and we're not in contact anymore, but I always say that.
[00:09:48] John Espirian: I, you know, this is not the only kind of list that I, that I publish, but I always say that if someone is asking to be on one of my lists, they're probably never going to be on the list because that's the sort of [00:10:00] person I tend not to associate with. I like people who get on with their work who are quite humble and, and probably wouldn't be, you know, forceful enough to say I should be on that list to put me on that list.
[00:10:15] John Espirian: So, so yeah, that was. That was a bit awkward, I suppose. But, um, it's been an interesting experience and that, and that it's been really well received. So yes, you're right. I've been paying the bills through copywriting for more than a decade, but actually the thing that really stirs me is, is helping people on LinkedIn and also running the espresso plus community.
[00:10:34] John Espirian: And for that reason, you're not going to be able to hire me to write vowels and consonants anymore. Realistically, I'm just going to focus on LinkedIn and the committee. Yes.
[00:10:44] Nola Simon: Yes. I love the way that you put that there. Copywriting and showing. Um, although I was interested in what your definition of.
[00:10:53] Nola Simon: Because you will accept commissions if they are particularly
[00:10:56] John Espirian: juicy. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I don't want to completely say [00:11:00] never, you know, some, some like my favorite football team wanted a brochure to be written. It happened to find me I'm not going to go well, I don't really do writing anymore. So I'm going to say no.
[00:11:09] John Espirian: So if it's something I'm particularly interested in. Then then, you know, of course I'll give it some consideration, but you've got to, I think it's important to stay in your lane. And my lane has been copywriting for the longest time, but the thing that really stirs me is helping. Particularly small business owners get better results from LinkedIn.
[00:11:30] John Espirian: So that's what I'm going to focus on and you get more of what you focus on. So if I'm trying to wear multiple hats, spin multiple plates, it's not going to work as well, or I'll just end up being exhausted. So I've decided to step back from copywriting and focus on the thing that gives me a bit more.
[00:11:47] Nola Simon: Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. And as a small business owner now, myself, I really appreciate that. So, but I want to bring back to the list. The other list that you do is the Friday show. And how long have you been running [00:12:00] that
[00:12:00] John Espirian: actually Friday shouts started in early 2018. So it's right now, it's been just over four years.
[00:12:08] John Espirian: Um, so going back to the days when I was a bit more active on Twitter, I always used to see follow Fridays and it ended up being a bit of a hashtag spam event. I didn't really think that much. And I thought, well, I could do something on LinkedIn just to shout out someone who seems to be doing good work.
[00:12:24] John Espirian: So let me just do that. And then I did it again the next week and I kept going and now. I haven't stopped and it's been more than four years. So we've got a group of, you know, getting on for 200 people that I've showcased over over those years of what I call good hearts and minds, people doing nice things on, um, on LinkedIn.
[00:12:48] John Espirian: And elsewhere. And, uh, it's just been, become a lovely part of my week. And it's been interesting from the content creation point of view because in the first, I would say year to 18 months, no one even [00:13:00] noticed that I was doing it. It was just a thing I did. And it got zero traction. These days, the videos that I do tend to get a lot more views and interaction.
[00:13:11] John Espirian: And some people who even again asked, you know, could I be in this. I've got a short list and I know who's going to be in there and when they're going to be in there, so just, you know, wait your turn and maybe you'll be, you'll be lucky. But if you're specifically asking to be in there, that's, that's probably not a good sign,
[00:13:29] Nola Simon: right?
[00:13:29] Nola Simon: Exactly. It's almost like a bellwether. It's like the Canary in the coal mine. Um, so what has been the most gratifying thing that you've been part of? I know you do a lot of charity events and a lot of different waves of supporting people. Um,
[00:13:50] John Espirian: I try my best. I think that the two that stand out most recently, I was auctioning the last of my set of, uh, original books [00:14:00] for, uh, inspiring girls international who are doing good.
[00:14:03] John Espirian: Good work to educate. You give girls more access to education and career prospects and so forth. And recently I've done a couple of webinars to help out with the relief efforts, uh, in, in Ukraine as well. Um, for the, for the refugees, mostly women, women, and children who are trying to get away from trafficking.
[00:14:22] John Espirian: So those are the two that probably stand out most. Um, but yeah, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll do my bit where I can, I, I like to do things where I can put my professional skills. To good use where possible. So the Ukraine webinars were good examples. I gave basically I gave my time to give people some LinkedIn advice.
[00:14:42] John Espirian: Um, and, and that's, that's perfect for me cause I can give my time people benefit. Maybe they'll have a better LinkedIn presence afterwards. For me, that's more effective than just simply donating money, which I also do a little bit of, but, um, I don't, I'd rather put my skills to use. So yeah, that was, that's probably the one that [00:15:00] stopped.
[00:15:00] John Espirian: Yeah,
[00:15:01] Nola Simon: I attended the, the, well, the, the one with Leah Turner and Andy foot, the one he did, um, that was fantastic. It was so incredibly helpful to have that many experts in speaking to all different themes. Um, and it was so worthwhile. And last time I checked, it was like, well, over like 65,000 pounds that they raised with that.
[00:15:20] Nola Simon: Right.
[00:15:21] John Espirian: It's a lot of money and it's been interesting because the guy who. Runs that charity has been creating behind the scenes content and posting it on LinkedIn. And so you can really see where the money's going and, and that kind of content really resonates. It really cuts through, you know, there's, there's no kind of glossy brochure here.
[00:15:42] John Espirian: This is the, this is the reality of what it's like to be on the ground. I think, um, maybe more businesses need to think about showing, you know, behind the curtain. This is. The reality of our lives are the way we run our business or whatever. That's the kind of content that really can cut through. [00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Nola Simon: Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely been worthwhile.
[00:16:03] Nola Simon: I paid a lot of potential. But, um, well thank you for doing that. Um, the other thing I wanted to just highlight is you mentioned that you were giving away your books. So John is actually an author. He's written content DNA, which is actually still on my list. I do have to get it. I haven't actually read it yet.
[00:16:20] Nola Simon: Um, but I do hear it highly recommended. Are you planning to do another book at any point? Or is this
[00:16:27] John Espirian: I've got no, I've got notes for, so content DNA took me two years to put together. I've got notes for my second book and to keep myself accountable, I am going to start sharing that content with espresso plus members as, as I write it so that people will get the book as it's being.
[00:16:47] John Espirian: Put together. And, and the thing that was most popular from the first book was people really liked the, the get to the point openers of each chapter, which really summarized what, what you [00:17:00] were going to learn in, in just two or three sentences. And I kind of thought to myself, well, what if I wrote a whole book like that?
[00:17:07] John Espirian: So the second book is going to be lots of very, very short chapters that are going to be hopefully short, sharp lessons on how. It can become the most helpful person in your industry so that you can end up being the person of choice. Uh, and that's, that's the idea behind relentless, which is the second book.
[00:17:27] Nola Simon: Oh, that's interesting. I love that. I don't know if you're calling it relentless. That's good. Um, it's funny. Uh, um, I'm actually in a kid's book and the author of the kid's book is Christian and Sherry. Um, but she also wrote another book which is called maximize 365. And that's how she wrote it. It was a 365.
[00:17:45] Nola Simon: Just for each day. So like, if you're not a reader, she has this thing that, um, she has a, an audience that may not be readers. So she's her, her goal was how do you engage somebody? Who's not really a reader. So I [00:18:00] actually found a little challenging degree because I am a reader, but for the person who just wants to read a page a day, it's kind of a good format.
[00:18:06] Nola Simon: So it's interesting in sort of.
[00:18:08] John Espirian: Yeah, I, I must admit I'm not a reader anymore. I was, I'm a listener now. And I go for a walk every morning. And in that hour, hour and a half, I'm always either listening to a podcast or I'm listening to an IBA. Uh, to an audio book. I just find that the most effective way for me to learn and little bit on YouTube as well, but mostly actually it's listening.
[00:18:32] John Espirian: So, um, so because of that, I, you know, I thought other people might be the same. So I recorded my, my book as an audio book as well. Um, I did debate whether I should use a professional voiceover for it, but in the end I decided to do it myself because people were telling me, you know, we'd rather hear it from you.
[00:18:49] John Espirian: So
[00:18:50] Nola Simon: I much prefer when you author desert, although I have heard some fantastic fiction books where they've actually Boyd actors to actually like do various [00:19:00] different voices, but I understand that more for fiction, but for a non-fiction book, I much prefer the author. Um, so I use audio in a different way.
[00:19:07] Nola Simon: Um, Like, I just, I find it engages me differently. Right. So I'll do it. I'll listen to something as I'm walking and I need to be active or when I'm doing a task, I really don't want to do like dishes or laundry or something like that, because it encourages me to do that because I'm learning at the same time.
[00:19:25] Nola Simon: Um, so I just find that I don't retain it as well. Right. That's the thing. So I tend to listen to books. The ideas are really vast and I really need to, um, uh, Think about it, but not necessarily go back to it. It engages the imagination. That's how I strategically use it. So for content DNA, for example, that's a book I know that I'm going to want to have in print because you're giving tips that I might want to revisit.
[00:19:57] Nola Simon: And with audio it's like, what [00:20:00] chapter was that in? Like, I find it harder to find the information that way. So.
[00:20:06] John Espirian: And plenty of people have said that they want to make notes in the book and you know, it's just practical to have a physical copy. But, um, yeah, w with me, I, I tend to, because I listened to so much content, I usually think if I can listen to a book and get one really good idea from it, that's sufficient, but that, that will have been a worthwhile investment of my time because I've got something one good thing I can go away and do.
[00:20:32] John Espirian: I don't have the expectation of having 30 brilliant ideas from reading a single book that never transpires for me. I can get one. I'll be happy if it makes a real difference, I'll be happy.
[00:20:45] Nola Simon: Yup. Yup. No, that's a good way to do it. Uh, the Steven Pressfield books are fun. I like those. He has just such a way of writing.
[00:20:54] Nola Simon: So what did you learn from writing your book? Like what were your takes as being a first time author and [00:21:00] what are you going to change with this new book?
[00:21:03] John Espirian: Um, it was certainly a lot of hard work to gather the notes together. I think the big mistake that I made with. With that book is, is instead of just having a whole pile of notes, I probably ought to have written a list of chapter headings and then written to that as it, as if it were a copywriting brief, you know, chapter one through to 30, here are the titles.
[00:21:24] John Espirian: Now we need to write each chapter as opposed to collecting years worth of notes. And then. Okay, how am I going to structure this now? Exactly. So it would have been more efficient on, on me. Uh, if I had been a bit more rigid with structure upfront, but the process of writing the book, and this is something that my marketing mentor, uh, mark Schaefer also says the process of writing a book makes you better at delivering that skill that you're talking about in the book.
[00:21:58] John Espirian: You know? So it's, it's that [00:22:00] old idea. If you really want to learn something, then try to teach it. Uh, and, and this is what I'm trying to do with the books. I'm trying to teach people how to get their personal brand sorted and create effective content. And so I think the standard of my content has gone up as a result of all of the time I've spent trying to.
[00:22:19] John Espirian: Convey in simple terms, how to do it to others. So that's been the valuable thing for me, but, um, I don't think the second book is going to be anywhere near as long, but I'm going to try and pack in just as much information in a smaller form factor. And hopefully it will be even more useful to.
[00:22:38] Nola Simon: Cool. Yeah, no, that's very interesting.
[00:22:39] Nola Simon: Yeah. It's almost like a role modeling, right? Because you're, you're writing the tips. You're, you're trying them out yourself and you role modeling and road testing your advice. So I like the, I like people who do, but is there anything else that you would like to mention so that people are aware of? I think we've covered an awful lot of how you, uh, you, [00:23:00]
[00:23:00] John Espirian: yeah, I think, I think the other than the community, which we've already talked about, I mean, Really interested in ethical best practice for LinkedIn.
[00:23:10] John Espirian: You know, th th there's a lot of people who are kind of self appointed growth, hacking experts who will seem to promise you a million leads tomorrow and a hundred thousand followers next week. And, you know, and I don't really buy into all of that. It's taken me. Really ages to get to the point where I can write a book or I can start a community that actually has people interested in joining it.
[00:23:35] John Espirian: And that's what I always refer to as the unsexy message you've got to turn up and you've got to turn up for quite a long time for this stuff to work. So I'm interested in speaking with people. Who've got that long view and who are, let's say, willing to invest a few years of their time to build a really meaningful presence without.
[00:23:54] John Espirian: Cheats shortcuts. You know, you're not going to get abs tomorrow. Basically. You've got to keep [00:24:00] going to the gym.
[00:24:02] Nola Simon: I just was reading. Somebody had written a, I don't know if you know Cole Schaffer, he gave me, he was writing an article a bit that funny. So yeah, no, I started, um, I started writing on LinkedIn after my mom died.
[00:24:16] Nola Simon: So 2017, so five years. And I'm, I'm, I'm closing in on 5,000.
[00:24:24] John Espirian: Yeah. Yeah, same as me. I mean, I got involved only in 2017 properly. I'd signed up a long time ago, but, and you know, the, it's the typical story, nothing happens at first, but if you keep showing up, eventually, if you're good enough, you will get noticed and it's just a gradual process.
[00:24:42] John Espirian: And then all of a sudden people who discover you later on will think. Well, you've always been successful because look at how many followers you've got or whatever. And it's just never the case. It's never the case. So
[00:24:52] Nola Simon: yeah, it's funny. People have started saying that to me recently, I get these inbox messages and they're like, hi, I don't know if you check your messages [00:25:00] because you have so many followers.
[00:25:01] Nola Simon: I'm just like, Okay, well, apparently five fast, which is really where it kind of,
[00:25:06] John Espirian: you want to go back to those people and say, where were you three years ago or wherever, you know?
[00:25:11] Nola Simon: Well, when it's funny, because I never, like, initially when I started growing it, I was internal. Right? So like my focus was never on numbers.
[00:25:18] Nola Simon: It was always more on like who I was connecting with. Right. Um, And I mean, I, I don't think I've changed that. Right? So like, I will accept, you know, random people and get to know them that way, but it's the intention. And honestly, I've noticed that with the podcasts, like I don't like being cold, pitched to be on my podcast.
[00:25:38] Nola Simon: So I want to be, I want you to be on my podcast because I'm interested in you and I know who you are and I know what you do, and I know how you approach things and that you're ethical and all that stuff. Right. So it's the same story. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the only thing that I will mention is I know we've had this discussion before about how to actually turn up [00:26:00] and like LinkedIn news.
[00:26:02] John Espirian: Yes we have. Yeah.
[00:26:04] Nola Simon: I have a different opinion on that one.
[00:26:07] John Espirian: You've cracked some secrets there, but yeah, for you, well, I'll give it, you know, if it helps you. Ethically grow your business, then it's, it's a good thing. And you know, the, the topics you talk about are, are important. You know, I've been working remotely since 2009.
[00:26:23] John Espirian: So for me, remote work is just like, it's just what you do to, to think that anyone would think differently. It's just weird to me. Cause that's, that's all I've known for more than a decade, but, um, yeah. So I wish you all the best in growing your following so that you can spread that message of, of hybrid work.
[00:26:41] John Espirian: Well,
[00:26:41] Nola Simon: and it's, it's more about how do you amplify the conversation and, and empower employees really to have those productive conversations and give them something specific that they can reference to have a productive conversation with a manager who might just not. Right. And that's really where my interest is in growing [00:27:00] that.
[00:27:00] Nola Simon: So, um, yeah. And as you say, like, it's, it's really just solely because it's newsworthy right now that, uh, that has been working, I think, so that aims. All right. Well, we will make sure that John's LinkedIn link. Is there the length of content DNA, uh, the signup for espresso plus, is there anything else. But in there
[00:27:20] John Espirian: that'd be more than enough.
[00:27:22] Nola Simon: Okay. Well, we'll put that all in the show notes, but I really appreciate you. Uh, join me. So, uh, I leave John in Wales, your whales, right? And, uh, this afternoon I have another podcast with Newfoundland. Uh, and then I'm going to be releasing this, uh, quarters podcast hopefully by Sunday. So listen to you.